Hey Andy, is God cruel and vengeful? I’m having difficulties dealing with all of the people over the years who’ve died, and whether they really deserved it. Like when the prophets say God says that He will make the dead people like dung upon the surface of the earth, and that he will make another group of people drink each other’s blood. It just seems like in Isaiah and Jeremiah, it’s all about God being cruel and taking revenge and doing all of these horrible things. I mean, I get that the people disobeyed God, but it’s just like some of the extremes of killing women and children, like the total destruction God calls for against the Chaldeans, for instance. I understand that they’d been committing evil acts in the sight of the Lord, and anyway we all deserve to die for our sins, but it has just really been bothering me. Anyway I guess maybe I just need some fresh perspective.
Hi, I understand what you’re saying, and it’s actually a common question asked by a lot of people I’ve come across over the years, so you’re not alone on this. So let me see if I can put it into a different perspective.
My wife and I have been going through Jeremiah in our personal Bible Studies, and we can totally understand how somebody might become anti-semitic when reading about it all. I mean, we’d never become anti-semitic, but the Hebrew Scriptures do make it really clear at how evil God’s chosen people were.
OK, just a warning, there’s a lot I can say about this, and I’m not known for short answers, so this is going to be really long. 🙂
When looking at the Bible, history, and how it all ties in with God, we need to recognize just how bad sin really is. I mean, it’s so dangerous that it could literally kill us…literally. It also separates us from God – our relationship with Him, but also pushes us away from Him and deeper into sin.
Let’s look for a moment at some cruel people, like Pharaoh or Judas. People wonder if they’re in Heaven now. Their take on this is that since God used them for glorify Himself, then they must not have had a choice in the matter, or they were born to be doomed. So since they couldn’t control their cruel actions, why should they be doomed to hell? But instead of thinking that God made them cruel so that everybody could see how good He is, I tend to think that they were going to be cruel people already, and God just used them and their cruelness for His purposes. It’s like, they’re already going that way in their lives, might as well use them for your purpose, ya know?
So when we get to the Israelites, God rescued them from slavery in Egypt. In the wilderness, God gave them standards, also known as the Law, to help them know what sin is, when they’re sinning, and what they need to do in order to get right with God again when they do sin. The Apostle Paul mentioned that the whole point of the Law was to serve as a nanny – something to train them up in the ways of the Lord, to bring them up reflecting the Lord, and something that was only temporary, so that when the Messiah came, they’d all be set and ready to accept Him, as well as move forward in their next step of their faith (because Christianity was never meant to be separate from Judaism, but the fulfillment – or upgrade – of Judaism). So the Law was meant to be the training grounds, or boot camp, preparing them for the coming of Jesus.
The problem was, though, that they just didn’t care. It’s like, they recognized that God chose them, but they didn’t care – they didn’t really want Him anyway. Granted, we do read of them choosing God when a leader leads them to make a choice, but most of the time it was out of fear of God’s punishment, or because they did whatever their leader did or told them to do. Look, for instance, at the end of Joshua: in Chapter 24, he gave them a choice to follow God or not follow God, but before they responded, He told them that he and his household will serve the Lord. I’m sure that if Joshua would’ve chosen somebody else to worship, they would’ve all followed up with the same decision. But either way, soon after Joshua died, the Israelites fell away from the Lord and followed the influences in that land. It’s actually a lot like what happened in Morehead with ACTIVATE. When I was there, everybody was on board and wanted to be involved. But shortly after I left, some tried to continue it, but they lost interest, and soon it just ended. Then most everybody who was involved (from our church anyway) fell away from the Lord, as well as the purpose and message of what we were spreading with ACTIVATE, and began listening to, believing, following and promoting the godless philosophies that they learned in their classes at MSU. I’m sure that if I would’ve stopped by some time back, some may have returned to the Lord, but then once I left, again they’d be on the same downward slide. And that’s what happened after Joshua and throughout the book of Judges. And so as they continue to slide away from God, they slide towards the mud pit at the base of the slide, a.k.a., sin and other sinful things. Whether God put that mud pit there or not is not the point. The point is that they willingly went that direction, and so since they never put their hands and feet out to stop, their journey to the mud pit was inevitable.
But can you imagine what the world (and Jews) would be like today if they all had obeyed the Law and stuck to it perfectly, teaching their children and their children’s children throughout every generation, recognizing it as preparations for the coming and promised Messiah? Can you also imagine if these Jews had all recognized Christ when He arrived and all moved forward with the “upgrade” in the faith, understanding the messages of the prophets and the inclusion of the Gentiles to the promise? It would be mind-blowing! Just off the charts-awesome! And it never would’ve become known as a separate religion from Christianity, for all who are Christians would be recognized as Jews (because the Jews would recognize the fulfillment of the Law through Christ, something their generations have all waited for!).
So anyway, now, when we come to Jeremiah and Isaiah (and the other prophets and their messages), I don’t think it’s so much that God’s saying that He Himself will kill them all, but that because they’ve willingly moved so far away from Him, their death and these things associated with their demises are inevitable, and God’s telling them that such will be the case if they don’t turn from their evil ways, repent, and follow His commands and decrees. Scripture says that God used Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon to punish His people, as well as all the sinning nations surrounding Israel. Nebuchadnezzar later hit rock bottom and later turned his eyes to the Lord and became a believer and follower of God (so Pharaoh and Judas could have turned to God if they’d wanted – they weren’t doomed, they were given a chance to turn and repent).
Romans 1 is also a very good chapter to better understand this, for it shows that it’s not that God willingly destroys evil people, but that in their rejection of Him, He ALLOWS them to continue in their ways, which lead to destruction. So if they continue to the point of destruction, it’s not God who destroyed them, but their sin and continued rejection of God and His righteousness that destroyed them. But Ezekiel 33:11 is also a great verse to look at for this, for there it says that God doesn’t desire the destruction of the wicked, but that He would prefer that they turn from their evil ways, repent, and turn to Him so that they may live (paraphrased).
Now, there are some other places where God talks about taking vengeance on some people. But again, that’s due to judgment of their sin. Remember, God is judge, but He’s a righteous judge. Paul reminds us of this in Romans 2:8-9 when he says that “for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil”. So, in Paul’s words, they have no excuse when they stand before the Lord in judgment because this was the path that they chose.
Today, we’re all given the Law’s standards on our hearts (now) – so we know right from wrong – and before that, everybody who fought the Israelites were well aware of the Lord (even the Philistines experienced God’s supremacy over their god, Dagon, but instead of turning to the Lord, they sent God away and continued worshiping their inferior god).
Now, there are people who knew the Lord beforehand, and yet still died, maybe before they were able to grow old, or were murdered. That’s not to say that it was because of their sin. In fact, many righteous people die every day. Jesus talked briefly about this when He reminded His 12 about the people who died at the hand of Pilate, or the people who died when the tower had fallen onto them. He said that they weren’t more sinful than those who survived, but He did use that as a crucial importance of the need to repent and turn to God. Revelation also talks of 2 witnesses of God who will rebuke many with the Word of God and create many enemies because of it. They’ll die horrible deaths and their enemies will gloat and celebrate their deaths, and nobody will be allowed to bury them. Similar was with Jesus though – He didn’t sin, yet He died by one of the most painful and torturous deaths, and we know it wasn’t because of His sin, but the sin of others that He died in such a way. So sin was involved, but not to be seen as punishment or judgment against the one who died/was killed. I can’t say for sure, but I’d be willing to say that in these cases, the punishment/judgment will be on the people who did this to them. But again, as we see with Nebuchadnezzar and Saul/Paul, they still have before their deaths to turn from their evil ways, repent, and follow the Lord.
So it’s not really about God’s revenge (remember, Jesus died for everybody), but about sin and judgment (for in order to receive forgiveness, one must first ask for it, and after receiving it, respond in obedience to the One who forgave them).
In other words, death is guaranteed for everybody, it doesn’t matter who you are or who you serve/worship. But if you don’t repent and live for God, then the way you die in this life won’t be the worst of what’s to come.
Sorry for such a long answer, but does that help some?
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